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Topic: Shane MacGowan |
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oldduke20 |
Posted: 27-Apr-09 10:42 |
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I had an insight this past weekend - it happens every once in a while.
Listening to The Broad Majestic Shannon, it hit me that Liam substituted "Shane" for "babe" not so much because he didn't like "babe", but that he was thinking about the song's author,and the pain Shane must be experiencing. There's not a person living, and never has been, who wants to be alcoholic. And it has its own pains, fears and agonies. If you're fortunate enough, somebody might get through to you, and teach you there is a way to break free, not of the disease, but of its control over you. Let's hope and pray that for Shane.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Duke |
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Bill1 |
Posted: 27-Apr-09 16:07 |
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Hi oldduke,
I like the start of your post- an insight comes to me every once in a while also.
Not nearly as often as I would like.
But I happen to agree with every word you said here.Babe to me makes no sence listening to the song.In the dvd from "Live At The Bitter End", Liam introduces the song as being autobiograhical (to Shane).
As somebody who likes a drink I recognize the dangers.Of course recognising the dangers does not protect you.One of the reasons an expression like " There but for the grace of God go I"" makes so much sence.
Reading Liam's autobiography shows how close he sailed to the wind.Not neccesarily a bad thing for a singer.
If Johnny Cash had not sailed so close to the wind his songs would not have been so poignant or understanding of people less fortunate. Man in Black would never have been written. Same can be said of Bob Dylan, Kris Kristofferson and Willie Nelson among others.
I think their lifestyle got them in contact with people they would otherwise never have met.
Sorry for being so longwinded.I was in pub earlier.I think you have it right Oldduke.I
thik Liam changed the words for the reason you said.
p.s
The above is not meant to be an excuse or defence of such a lifestyle. |
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Kerstin |
Posted: 15-May-09 05:57 |
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I don't know wy I pick this subject up and wy now but I agree with Bill1, I like the start of Oldduke's post and the rest of it to - as usual. I also like the start of what Bill1 wrote, and the rest of it. I think both of you have it right.
It's difficult to understand why someone in an audience can be offended when an artist appear drunk on the stage.
This is not a big problem. Irritating, yes, but really not a big problem. As Oldduke wrote: "There's not a person living, and never has been, who wants to be alcoholic." We who have the fortune on our side and happens to manage the alcohol should just be grateful.
A lot of my older relatives joined the temperance movement in their youth and stayed there. And I have to say I never heard them moralize over those unlucky people who drink to much. In my experience it often is the moderate drinker who condemns the alcoholic.The moderate drinker, strange enough, also often seems to dislike the total abstainer. And this make me angry!
Kerstin |
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analogue |
Posted: 15-May-09 17:14 |
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I have every sympathy with alcoholics, and every respect for those who try to deal with that sickness, for that is what it is, but I still don't think that people should appear in front of a paying audience while drunk. One of the problems alcoholics have is enablers, people who turn a blind eye to their anti-social behaviour, a misguided form of do-gooding. If something is wrong, say so! You do no service to anyone with mawkish sentimentality. |
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oldduke20 |
Posted: 15-May-09 17:23 |
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I agree with you %100 on that one, Gerry. The love that often helps is tough love.
Not only that, if I pay good money for a show, and he or she is falling-down drunk, I will feel sorry for them, but you can bet your bippie I'll want my money back.
[Edited by oldduke20 on 15-May-09 17:31] |
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Kerstin |
Posted: 16-May-09 11:39 |
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I agree in all what you are saying except that I don't think I would demand my money back and I think that there very often are some more to know about the circumstances that brought the situation with a drunk artist performing, before one can blame someone - the artist or the people around him or her. If the situation is repeated several times I can understand the indignation though. Then I also would want my money back.
But I want to clear out that I meant that kind of indignation when you sniff at someone (Perhaps we women do this more often than men? I don't know and I'm speaking from a Swedish point of view.), for example at a too drunk person and in this case at an artist on stage. That I don't like and especially not when the same,in that way, indignated person think that one should take a drink or two. A kind of double standard (I don't know if that is the right word.)and disdain. There is more to say about this but I don't think I'm able to do it in English.
Kerstin
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John Lesko |
Posted: 17-May-09 14:22 |
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"No alcholic who dies drunk, dies in vain.". These woirds were uttered by Father Joe martin er Joe, a grateful recovering, drunk himself.
I am hoping that Shane have that fate, But an alchy needs every drink he takes, till his recovery begins to make sense to him.
I hope that Shane will have a lot to share with us when that happens. |
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oldduke20 |
Posted: 18-May-09 19:40 |
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Thanks, John - lots of wisdom in your words.
Rather off the point, is Father Joe still among us? |
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John Lesko |
Posted: 18-May-09 19:53 |
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Duke,
Unfortunately, I don't know, but I certainly hope so. |
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cassielee |
Posted: 18-May-09 22:56 |
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I'm sad to say Father Martin passed away in March of this year at 84 years old... He was a fine man and a wise speaker and advocate for sobriety. He cared very much for alkies, both sober and drunk.
I can only hope and say some prayers for Shane. The clips of him I saw on Youtube let me know that he won't be able to hold it together much longer unless he somehow reverses the course of his illness and starts to recover. John, I agree that there is wisdom in your words. I too hope that Shane's recovery begins to make sense to him. It's up to him entirely. It's up to me to feel compassion (and tough love) for him.
[Edited by cassielee on 18-May-09 22:58] |
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Kerstin |
Posted: 19-May-09 03:27 |
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Thank you all for your words.
Kerstin |
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John Lesko |
Posted: 21-May-09 12:19 |
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Eternal rest grant to Fr. Martin.
In my first posting in This thread, I tragicly ommited the word "NOT" from the senence referring to Shane. I apologize for that.
If Shane ever has a chance to recover, his comments will truly be the only "Big Book" any alchy- recovering or not, will ever need to read.
In words familiar to members of any Twelve Step mvement, "Expect a miracle!"
God bless you, Shane. |
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ChancyBros |
Posted: 18-Jul-10 06:43 |
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This is a song that is really starting to move me when I hear it or s
ing it, such a lovely melody. Though my favourite version is the recor
ding on Wheels of Life, this video is almost equally wonderful to list
en to. Much like the fact that the original song was not performed by
the Clancy Brothers, the Chancy Brothers have yet to peform it as a gr
oup. I like to give it a run myself at sessions though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJtvtVmdFG8&feature=related
Pádraig Chancy |
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John Lesko |
Posted: 18-Jul-10 15:35 |
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Duke,
I know what the "experts"mean when they talk about strokes and "short term memory loss" since this post is proof positive of it.
I really don't know why I'm doing this, except because I have an incling that my time to spread my copious wisdom and insight to all who may need it- BUT bare with me and I'll be brief as humanly possible.
Needless to say, I'm a grateful recovering addict. I am a member of the club of people who believe addictions are just like potato chips- nobody can have just one. I have nearly ( next year to be exact) thirty years of steady abstinence from alchohol.
However- I hve another monkey on my back over which I'm more like the Chicago White Sox vs the New York Yankees- it has consistantly kicked my ass!
I did get around six years of continuous abstinence (I can't say sobriety). Then I blew it and remained it's victim till quite recently.
This "cross" has a name and that name is sexual addiction. No, it AINT all that much fun, folks.
Recently, I carefully reviewed four lives (including my own) looking for a common thread that. Would bind them all together and wouldn'tcha know! I found the common thread, and that thread has a very well known name- SHAME!!!
Shame was the sick reward all four of us achieved. In short, shame was what we were trying to achieve. In short the list of symptoms he rattled off during our "short sharing" wE called manifestions of our addiction. These particulars were a road map to our supple but grand glory, yeah, I'll say it again- shame!
What we wanted was another validation of our own lack of self worth. Further, we sought out permanent partners who would turn on us mercilessly when we dirtied our selves with one if our "particulars". |
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John Lesko |
Posted: 27-Jul-10 14:05 |
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Hi again everybody!
I will spare all who read this another post twelve step rant and share some GOOD news about my current new obsession, Google!
I tripped over CB&TM on the same BBC show with The Dubliners. The big thing about this free-for-all event was that Ronnie & company did "Welia Walia" in honror of of songs that the Clancys & Makem stole from them. I. Also fell on an unforgettable "Raglan Road" by Luke Kelly.
Please excuse my exitement over such simple things as I write this. To me, it's all a great novelty. |
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ChancyBros |
Posted: 28-Jul-10 03:57 |
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Weila Waile, or however it's spelt, is an attrocious song I must say. I just can't get over how nursery rythme repetitive it is. Apologies to those who don't share this view, everytime I hear it it's like I'm the one getting stabbed with the pen knife.
Tis a lovely Raglan Road with Luke Kelly featuring banjo plucking.
To share the spirit of new discovery, I saw Andy Irvine last night (separate thread) and in his song about O Donoghues in 1962 he cites Ronnie Drew as a man with voice like gravel that would cut you in two, all thought he was Dublin through and through but he came in on the ferry from Liverpool. Great song! |
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Steve |
Posted: 28-Jul-10 18:04 |
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"He came in on the ferry from Liverpool"?!?
Hang on ... Ronnie Drew a Scouser? |
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analogue |
Posted: 29-Jul-10 08:06 |
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Forgive me if I'm wrong, John Lesko, but I think the show where you saw the Dubs and CBTM together was RTE's Late Late Show.
And Chancybros, Weila Waile is a based on a childrens' game song so it is, of course, repetitive.
For fear of alienating many, I won't comment here on Luke Kelly's version of Raglan Rd., but many people on this site are aware of my views on this.
[Edited by analogue on 29-Jul-10 08:07] |
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John Lesko |
Posted: 29-Jul-10 08:58 |
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Forgive me for being a folk music nerd, but "the song in question" is a varient of a prestigious, depressing piece titled "The Cruel Mother". Planxy has it's own version of t root song and it's titled "The Well Below the Valley".
I have an anicdotal reference to"W.W." from a social encount I had with a coed from Barat College.
It ses that she was in the audience somewhere in Massachusetts for a CB&TM concert where the Boys thought that they'd raise the audience's level of conscience to a higher plateau by performing "W.W.". When the heart (no pun intended) of the song was sung, the audience began to get much smaller.
I wonder, was it something they said, orore accurately, sung? |
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oldduke20 |
Posted: 29-Jul-10 16:07 |
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Hey, Steve, what the divil is a Scouser? If it means a Liverpoolian, it's news to me. I could have sworn he was Dublin born and bred. He has long been a favorite of mine. And how did we get from Shane MacGowan to Ronnie, anyway?
[Edited by oldduke20 on 29-Jul-10 16:10] |
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analogue |
Posted: 05-Aug-10 07:52 |
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I'm not 100% sure of what you're saying here, John, and this does not in any way mean that the song was not based on the Cruel Mother, but I can remember kids in Dublin streets (northside of course) chanting variants of Weila Waile long before the CBTM and the Dubs were famous.
I'm not mad about the song either, and was commenting on your comment about its repetitiveness. |
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Steve |
Posted: 05-Aug-10 17:49 |
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Yeah Old Duke ... a Scouser is someone born in Liverpool. One of the Chancy Lads appeared to suggest above that Mr Ronald Drew, no less, was a native of my home city. Surely not - something's been lost in translation there, methinks!! Nooooo - just doesn't add up.
Mind you, there's a nasal twang in the accents of both cities, not to mention items of shared vocabulary ... |
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Spud Murphy |
Posted: 06-Aug-10 02:27 |
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Ronnie Drew(RIP) was born in Dun Laoghaire on the 18th of September 1935. The line(s) from the Andy Irvine song "O'Donoghue's" that Chancy seems not to have caught are "Ronnie Drew in his fine suit of blue,and a voice like gravel that would cut you in two,We thought he was Dublin through and through,but he blew in from Dun Laoghaire" I hope this clears things up. |
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Steve |
Posted: 06-Aug-10 06:16 |
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Emphatically - and a good thing, too!! Well played, Spud. |
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Jane Eberhardt |
Posted: 07-Aug-10 22:56 |
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I googled "scouse" because I'd never heard of it. Paddy Clancy sings in Paddy West that "he gave us a feed of American hash and he called it Liverpool scouse". Google said that it's a kind of stew that's particular to Liverpool. I love that Google, too, John. Works every time.
Best to all,
Jane |
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Pat 56 |
Posted: 08-Aug-10 10:03 |
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Wikipedia for the win! The two types of scouse are:
1)
Scouse (pronounced /ˈskaʊs/) is the accent and dialect of English found in the city of Liverpool and also in some adjoining urban areas of Merseyside. This is particularly strong within areas of neighbouring boroughs of south Sefton and Knowsley.
The Scouse accent is highly distinctive, and sounds wholly different from some of the accents used in the neighbouring regions of Cheshire and Lancashire. Even within the Merseyside county itself, accents in St Helens and Southport, for example, are by contrast quite different and are more Lancastrian. Inhabitants of Liverpool are called Liverpudlians but are more often described by the colloquialism Scousers. Scousers often call people from outside their region as "woollyback kebles".
The variety of Scouse spoken on the Wirral has several differences in speech patterns and pronunciation and has been referred to as 'posh scouse'. Wirral inhabitants are often and somewhat negatively referred to as plastic scousers or "plazzie scousers". There are more variations found in the new town areas of Runcorn and Ellesmere Port in Cheshire and Skelmersdale in Lancashire.
2)
In the 18th and 19th centuries Liverpool, being a major seaport, found itself inundated with foreign seamen, especially Norwegians, looking for a berth on any ship. There is still a Scandinavian Seamen's Church in Liverpool built in the 19th century.[1] Scandinavian seamen's churches proliferated in many British ports in the late 19th century,[2] and it is therefore probable that these incomers brought their recipes to Liverpool.
A "pan of scouse" became a common meal in working class Liverpool. A thickened stew, usually of mutton or lamb with vegetables[3] slow cooked to tenderise cheap cuts of meat, it takes its name from the Norwegian for stew, "lapskaus". The shortened and anglicised version of this Norwegian word is "scouse" and is part of a genre of slang terms which refer to people by stereotypes of their dietary habits, i.e. Pom, Limey, Rosbif (Australian, American and French slang respectively for the English), and Kraut (an English colloquial ethnonym for a German).
Scouse is still a popular dish in Liverpool, where it is a staple of local pub and café menus, although recipes vary greatly and often include ingredients which are inconsistent with the thrifty roots of the dish. In its short form, "Scouse", the name eventually came into common English usage to describe the local accent of Liverpool, and a resident of Liverpool (as "Scouser").
I now return you to your regularly scheduled insanity. 
All the best!
Pat
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Jane Eberhardt |
Posted: 08-Aug-10 12:49 |
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I stand augmented, Pat. I was just trying to find out what Paddy was singing about. Now if you will just explain the rest of the song to me it would be much appreciated. I understand some parts, but others...not so much.
Jane |
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annlizzy |
Posted: 09-Aug-10 02:00 |
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Hey Analogue.... I am from the southside and I sang this song as a child.... see other posts!! This was a favourite one among children as we could all form a circle and sing the song with "volunteers" being the old woman and child etc.... great when you are seven years old... it goes back longer than my childhood as my mother told me that they sang it, and my Ma would be 80 now if she was still here!! My little neice is now playing it in school and she got me to write down the words for her to make sure she can get it right!
A great Liberties childhood I can tell you....
Ann |
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Steve |
Posted: 09-Aug-10 10:49 |
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Ann ... may be over in Dublin next week. |
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Steve |
Posted: 09-Aug-10 10:50 |
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... in fact, glancing again at the notes above, if I get over there I'll bring a dish of scouse with me, eh? Or "a pan of scouse" as they say in the 'Pool. |
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annlizzy |
Posted: 09-Aug-10 16:01 |
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Bring the scouse and head up to the Hole in the Wall... no fizzy red lemonade there, but a great pint... hoping to be there to see the Chancy Bros, and as they are not going to be there on the weekend of my birthday I am going to celebrate early instead!!!
Ann |
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analogue |
Posted: 10-Aug-10 05:45 |
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North/South, Anna .... we agree. |
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ChancyBros |
Posted: 10-Aug-10 12:35 |
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Must have misheard Andy Irvine.
While I'm listening to the song now, Weile Waile that is, I can respond to you Gerry, I didn't wish to debate why the song should or shouldn't be repetitive, I just can't stand listening to it.
That's just a fact, not even an opinion, the few ballads I don't like, I would never take anything away from.
Coming back to the topic, Shane McGowan's singing often doesn't agree with me, it still agrees with a lot of other people. I just won't be singing Weile Waile or listening to Shane McGowan very much, if at all!
I look forward to singing many other songs on Saturday in my Geansai Ban with the rest of the Chancy Brothers at the Hole in the Wall on Blackhorse Avenue, 10pm til close. Feel free to find out how much that does or doesn't agree with y'all!
Pádraig Chancy |
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obd |
Posted: 10-Aug-10 16:29 |
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Jane ....
Here's the Paddy West explanation the way I was taught to sing it ....
Dan
As I was walkin' down London Road,
I come to Paddy West's house,
He gave me a feed of American hash;
He called it Liverpool scouse,
He said "There's a ship and she's wantin' hands,
And on her you must sign,
The mate's a tyrant , the bos'un's worse,
But she will suit you fine."
>>> Translation A guy was walking down a city street and he arrived at Paddy West's Training School for Sailors. To make the student feel like a sailor he was given a plate of hash but was told it was stew from the port city of Liverpool
Chorus:
Put on yer dungaree jacket,
And walk up looking yer best,
And tell them thta you're a poor sailor lad
That came from Paddy West's.
>>>>>>> Dress like a sailor and mention my name and maybe they'll believe you know what you're doing
When we had finished our dinner,
Boys, the wind began to blow.
Paddy sent me to the attic,
The main-royal for to stow,
But when I got to the attic,
No main-royal could I find,
So I turned myself 'round to the window,
And I furled the window blind.
>>> Translation In a high wind you'd take down the largest sail, the main royal. Since the training school is a house you went up to the attic instead of the masthead. Since there were no sails in the attic the only thing to roll up and stow was the window shade
Now Paddy he pipes all hands on deck,
Their stations for to man.
His wife she stood in the doorway,
A bucket in her hand;
And Paddy he cries, "Now let 'er rip!"
And she throws the water our way,
Cryin' "Clew in the fore t'gan'sl, boys,
She's takin on the spray!"
>>>> To give the student some foul weather training Paddy calls them into the room and his wife throws a bucket of water on them. Since the "ocean spray" is getting everyone wet they'd better take down more sails (the fore t'gan'sls):
There's just one thing for you to do
Before you sail away,
Just step around the table,
With the bullock' on display
And if ever they ask "Were you ever at sea?"
you can say "Ten times 'round the Horn"
And Be Jesus but you're and old sailor man
From the day that you were born.
>>>> Translation An experienced sailor would have sailed past Cape Horn several times so for training purposes Paddy put a bull's head on a table and had the students walk around it so they could truthlfully say they'd been around the horn 10 times and had experience.
I've worked with a lot of computer support people that I believe got their 'certifications' at Paddy West's Computer Institute. Forgive me, I'm a pre-Windows Dos prompt guy C:> type EXIT to EXIT
Dan
Below are a few more training exercises that CBTM left off the album .........
Chorus:
Put on yer dungaree jacket,
And walk out lookin' yer best,
And tell 'em that you're an old sailor man
That's come from Paddy West's.
4. Now seein' she's bound for the south'ard,
To Frisco she was bound;
Paddy he takes a length of rope,
And he lays it on the ground,
We all steps over, and back again,
And he says to me "That's fine,
And if ever they ask were you ever at sea
You can say you crossed the line."
Chorus:
5. To every two men that graduates,
I'll give one outfit free,
For two good men on watch at once,
Ye never need to see,
Oilskins, me boys, ye'll never want,
Carpet slippers made of felt,
I'll dish out to the pair o' you,
And a rope yarn for a belt.
Chorus:
6. Paddy says "Now pay attention,
These lessons you will learn.
The starboard is where the ship she points,
The right is called the stern,
So look ye aft, to yer starboard port
And you will find northwest."
And that's the way they teach you
At the school of Paddy West.
Chorus:
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Jane Eberhardt |
Posted: 11-Aug-10 12:31 |
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Dan -
Thanks for the explanation of Paddy West.
I finally figured out that Paddy West's was a training school for sailors, although Paddy Clancy didn't mention it. After I found "scouse" on Google, the next puzzle was main royal. It sounded like Paddy was singing "minroils". I couldn't understand "fore t'gan'sls", and wouln't know one if I fell over it. Finally, I didn't get "step around the table with the bullok' on display". It sounded like Paddy Clancy was singing "bulloks". I won't tell you what came to mind, but I'm gad you cleared that one up.
This is a fun song. I enjoy it even more now that I know what it means.
Again, thanks.
Jane
[Edited by Jane Eberhardt on 11-Aug-10 12:34] |
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analogue |
Posted: 12-Aug-10 07:51 |
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We have no argument, ChancyBros. I'm no great admirer of the song either. Neither am I any admirer of Shane McGowan's singing, but I do rate him very highly as a song writer, and I think that 'Fairytale of New York' is a minor classic. Have you ever heard the spoken version, recorded by Colette Proctor and myself? It was released by EMI for Christmas 2000, and made a few bob for St. V de P, but, even though some DJs, even in the US, play it every year, it is no longer available. If you are interested, send me an email address and I'll send you an MP3 of it. I'm kind of proud of it. |
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Pat 56 |
Posted: 13-Aug-10 01:33 |
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Gerry, put it on YouTube! You can just pick a photo you like, or a slide show, record the audio with it, and slap it on there! That way, we can ALL listen to it.
Just a thought...
Pat
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oldduke20 |
Posted: 13-Aug-10 05:25 |
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Gerry, hear, hear! I'll second Pat's motion.
[Edited by oldduke20 on 13-Aug-10 05:55] |
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analogue |
Posted: 19-Aug-10 08:37 |
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If I send it to one of you guys will you put it on UTube? I haven't a clue how to do it? |
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oldduke20 |
Posted: 19-Aug-10 12:46 |
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Neither do I...............sorry. |
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